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I know I was somewhat negative in my last post, but understand I still paid $100 a seat to go see her play 10 songs as a warm up for JCM, and totally enjoyed the show, and thought it was money well spent.
I read your recent post as very clean, thoughtful, and eloquent, Tim. I really appreciate your refreshing insights as it can get unnecessarily hot and overly optimistic in here sometimes. Your thoughts ring true and do offer a look at other (personal) dynamics that are occurring well outside the small confines of this forum. Interesting is the fact that Happy Woman Blues, Sweet Old World, and Self-titled can be so easily and quickly shelved and discounted–like as you mentioned dismissing Dylan’s early material–or how about My Aim is True, Armed Forces or This Year’s Model–clearly classics and mile markers in the world of music. Why don’t we throw American Beauty under the bus while we are at it? Sticky Fingers, too? They will always be classics even in the face of (a supposed well-connected and responsible) someone’s denunciation–as happened here a few comments back.
@stevarino wrote:
David in Maine,
You sure have a lot of time to type.
Regardless, I read your post from Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:14 pm and thought that for you it was a well written, non controversial opinion of Lucinda’s recent work and tour. I thought it was balanced and non-provocative. I tend to agree with you that there are folks on here that think that she can do no wrong, and that their opinion is the only opinion and if you disagree with it them you are wrong. Its kind of like telling me that my favorite Lucinda Williams song is wrong, and that I’m stupid for having that song as my favorite.
I was totally shocked when Tom Overby came on and blasted you for writing what you wrote. That is just totally wrong from a customer relation perspective. Maybe Tom does not care about customers. Customers aren’t allowed to have an opinion on this page.
Tom, you need to mellow out dude. The emotion and energy you put into that write up doesn’t make sense to me. Telling a long time fan that his opinion is wrong is just not the right approach. You should try to understand the difference between fact and opinion. You put a lot of facts out there but, why the effort. David is well informed of the tour the music, and has a been a long time fan. He was expressing an opinion. He is allowed to have one.
I even see that Pit Bull drove a long way to see a concert this weekend and enjoyed it. He is always controvesial, but obviously a huge fan. Tom, don’t piss off Lucinda’s fans. The folks typing in here probably have every album the lady put out and go to any show within a reasonable drive.
Don’t tell us our opinion’s are wrong or dont matter, they do.
Steve
OK–I’m not even really sure where to start -but Stevarino I wanted to answer your post first, as I feel that you misunderstood what I was saying. First off, I was not blasting anyone and i did not come with guns blazing-that’s why i prefaced it the way I did. You would know if I came with guns blazing. Also, I am very aware of “customer relations” as you put it, and I care very much about it. As Lucinda’s manager I have tried to do things and will be trying to do more things completely with her fans in mind. I think that there are things being done here -and things that are coming in the not too distant future that will continue to bear that out.
I think all you have to do is look back at the archives of this forum and you will see that opinions have never been stifled here. Far from trying to stifle opinions, or smack down ones I don’t like, which is an accusation I take great offense to, I am always listening to and considering them. If i didn’t I certainly wouldn’t bother reading this forum, or the forum could be removed altogether which is what a lot of artists have done recently-and for that very reason.The American Heritage dictionary definition of forum is “A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website”. I am a big believer in open public discussion of ideas – discourse is where ideas are born and problems are solved. But I also appreciate it on a much simpler level, sometimes it is interesting to discuss things, or stick a pin in someone’s over inflated balloon.
But as part of open discussion and the ability to express opinons (and facts- and yes I very much know the difference, but i’ll get to that in a second), I think that also includes the right for me to jump into the fray and express mine. I don’t know, maybe somewhere in my subconscious I am a frustrated debate-teamer. Anyway, I will at times jump in here, maybe just to discuss, maybe to stick the pin in, or maybe a line has been crossed.
And yes I do know the difference between opinion and fact, and also opinions that cite facts that are not true. Sometimes my BS detector just goes off, and when it does I may respond. But the worst thing by far are opinions presented as actual facts, which are then used to form the basis for a criticism. Its at that point that I will always jump in because true discourse cannot have the foundation of untruths and personal and negative agendas. I can take any opinion and criticism as long as its honest- for instance the difference between someone who says “sometimes it appears Lucinda treats her people badly” (honest opinion) and “Lucinda treats her people badly” (presented as fact and is pure dishonesty) is everything and is not acceptable. That is not opinion, that is a lie. And when it is, I don’t care who you are– then I WILL come with guns blazing, and I will call BS what it is, because at that point a line is crossed and you are messin’ not only with Lucinda’s character and reputation but her very livelihood. And mine. And I will always guard that. I think everyone can understand that. I hope so.Thanks for the clear headed calm reply Tom. Sorry if I misunderstood your response, but to me, at least, it seemed reactionary, and disproportionate to DIMs initial write up. I re-read both entrys and still have the same opinion. Although I considered most of what David wrote as opinion, I can understand your feeling that some of it was presented as factual.
On a different thought, I keep going back and forth on going to Lucinda’s show in Columbus at Promo West. This is a general admission show with a big concrete dance floor in front of the stage, backed by slightly elevated limited unassigned seating in plastic folding chairs. The only food they serve is White Castles. I saw her there in the Spring of ’07, and although the concert was good, the facility is just sub standard.
Can you bring her to Cincinnati to the Taft Theater or Music Hall which are both wonderfull old theaters with comfortable assigned seating, great acoustics, more seating, and just better ambiance.
Please!
Steve
“Can you bring her to Cincinnati to the Taft Theater or Music Hall which are both wonderfull old theaters with comfortable assigned seating, great acoustics, more seating, and just better ambiance”
no offense, but when lucinda starts playing venues “with comfortable assigned seating” that’s when i’ll have to stop going……i’ll fall asleep…..
the one sit down show i saw at the el rey was a great show (doug and lucinda acoustic) but i need to stand and move around when the music’s going, that’s why i get out of the house to hear so much live music, to get OFF my butt……..loved the catalyst show!!! and love that lila downs is doing i envy the wind……..!!!!!
i agree, lucinda ignites passion, and that’s a good thing for all of us…lisa
Stella,
I’ve been to a half dozen of Lucinda’s concerts and the one at Promo West was the only general admission concert I attended. All the others had specific seats on the tickets I purchased. We stayed at a hotel near the downtown Columbus venue and got in line early with the true fans who all got the good seats above the concrete dance floor. Talking to the good folks around me they were obviously diehard fans like me. The stage front concrete dance floor was mostly empty until the show started. And yes there was a small group of true fans right up at the stage to watch the band but mostly the floor was filled with groups of younger kids who probably bought their tickets at the door and were more into socializing with each other than watching the show. I can send you a video of her performing “I Envy The Wind” where you can barely her her singing above all the talking in front of me.
My concert rule is to know exactly when a band’s tickets will go on sale or presale and get the best seats I can, usually in the first few rows. My experience here is that the folks sitting around me are dedicated passionate fans and its just a blast talking to them, enjoying the concert with them, and very rarely does anyone sit after the show has started.
So don’t fall asleep on us, Lu has lots of great shows left in her. I suspect she has one or two shows where you know where your seat is when you buy the ticket. And hopefully only Humprey’s by the Bay is the only other place with the plastic folding chairs.
…That is not opinion, that is a lie. And when it is, I don’t care who you are– then I WILL come with guns blazing, and I will call BS what it is, because at that point a line is crossed and you are messin’ not only with Lucinda’s character and reputation but her very livelihood. And mine. And I will always guard that. I think everyone can understand that. I hope so.[/quote] <– From your post listed above.
TOveby: This is a forum, an open forum at that. It sure sounds like you are treating it like yours and you are the only one that has a BS detector. I for one am not impressed that you “WILL come out with guns blazing”–remember, all caps means yelling in terms of etiquette. What is that about? Are you the ultimate source of all things LW? Are you the only one whose perspective matters here? My perspective is very sound and from your last posts here, I am far from impressed with your perspective and I can certainly sense when I think someone is being defensive and thumping their finger off my chest. Frankly, your comments regarding my post reminds me of the Wizard of Oz–“don’t mind that man behind the curtain–I am the great and powerful Oz!” Perhaps you should consider opening a closed journal or a blog because many of us have been around a long time and have very sophisticated BS detectors in terms of knowing LWs music and performances. Some of us are more than able to build a solid and learned debate in terms of someone’s BS or, as I believe it is the case with some of your entries, when someone goes defensive. TOverby–you are LW manager, a fortunate position, indeed. But please remember, with that position comes the responsibility of inheriting a bunch of long time fans. Some of which are akin to stepchildren that have been with their Mom well before a new marriage–you have to earn our trust not just scream in our ears. No need to scream, dudeski–this is only a freakin’ forum. If this was a playground, you might be considered its bully.
Ok, (…..I guess not)
I am the only one who is a little taken aback that Lucinda’s manager feels
the need to make his opinion known on what people are posting on this
forum? I mean I could see if someone was being downright nasty the forum
moderator might say something…or delete a post if necessary, but if some
one is just giving their opinion they should not be worried Lucinda’s manager
is going to take them to task for it. If thats the case this forum should state “If your posts are not all positive and considered inline with that of Lucinda’s
management, expect to be raked over the coal’s”I say this with no ill feelings to Tom Overby. In fact it feels weired
even addressing him! When I post something positive on here I really
don’t expect to to hear back from Lucinda or her manager, it goes the
same way if wrote something considered negative. Im sure if I said something really stupid, my fellow forum members would let me know
about it.Just my 2 cents.
Looking forward to seeing Lu again at the Shubert
in New Haven in October.Mike
Here’s my two cents worth. I think Tom is entitled to voice his opinion just like the rest of us are. For those of you offended by his comments, I say get over it. I totally support Lucinda’s decision to play a bunch of Little Honey songs on this tour. It’s her new album and artists typically promote their new material on tours. That “David Byrne 30/30/30” mix, bullsh!t or not, is just not applicable here. Why should we expect this alleged model of David Byrne to apply to Lucinda? When an artist has a new album coming out, I expect to hear that new music when I see that artist perform. Years from now, when I’m chilling listening to Little Honey I’ll reminisce about when I first heard these songs…..when Lu was doing her Little Honey Tour.
By the way, to liken Lu’s early work to Dylan’s early work is, in my opinion, a stretch……………………Y’all have a nice day
jeez. now I remember why I stray away from artist specific forums.
99% of the time it’s a bunch of overzealous fans who think said artist can do no wrong that beat up on the seemingly level headed fans who see the flaws.
Her set list is uninspired. Her reputation of the past few years is getting a bit out of hand. All she is going to do is alienate new fans who go to see her. Much like the people here will also alienate anyone who breaks from the group think.
Hey I love this forum. Such animated and impassioned stuff.
I can appreciate this is a very pressured time for Lu and therefore for Tom. Album in the can – marketing budgets, tour budgets ,how many units need to be shifted in order to recoup. Let’s be honest they are at the real sharp end and the stress must be very acute for them at this time. The rest of us are just living our lives, looking forward to the new record and planning which venues to visit, how much for the hotel and the best route to get to the venue.
However, this debate is a recurring one and what amazes me about it is that it keeps rearing its ugly head with no apparent account taken of the reasonable points made by fans who are after all paying customers.
I do not manage a recording artist but I am a manager in business and I have to have a fruitful relationship with customers. The feedback on this forum is a great resource because it provides the best customer feedback index anyone could ask for – and Hell – it’s free!!
That being so why not treat it as such for once and refocus the strategy to actually concentrate on giving the public what they want at gigs? How many times do paying customers have to say they were disappointed by the product before somebody tries to address the issue of ragged performances and erratic sets?
I respect Lucinda’s right to change as an artist but she ignores the views of her lsiteners at her peril. I love her work and want her to be mega successful but she will not be as long as she ignores the conventions of live concerts and the expectations of her fans. No offence meant.
I have to agree with alot of the sentiments expressed here by some big & longtime Lucinda Williams fans. When Tom Overby posts something I usually see three things. Propaganda, spin & BS! He must have a megaphone in one hand and a pom-pom in the other. Nothing but a cheerleader.
Peace pipe anyone? On a more positive note; How ’bout those Buffalo Bills! Sorry, wrong thread. I can’t help it, I’m a big fan. Side note, my wifes’ birthday is today(43), we’ve been together since the 11th grade. We have 4 grown children, and 4 beautiful grandchildren. Oh yeah, in order to get back on the same thread, my wife is not a Lucinda fan, but she gives me the green light to go to as many shows I can. Life is good, and Lucindas’ music is a gift. Thank You, and Good Day.
@fuji81 wrote:
Life is good, and Lucindas’ music is a gift. Thank You, and Good Day.
AMEN. Preach it, brotha! 😆
Happy B-Day to your wife, too. You need to school her on Lu’s music, though… 😈 😀
Tom
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