FORUM › Forums › Lucinda Williams › Lucinda in general › THE LOST SONGS
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July 12, 2010 at 3:39 am #30255TOverbyParticipant
Over the last couple of weeks I have made a pretty surprising and remarkable discovery that was more than a little influenced by the bootleg/live concert thread in here -as I think you will see.
A couple of weeks ago I was asked by Lucinda’s attorney to compile a list of “unexploited” Lucinda compositions. An unexploited song is a song that Lucinda has written and recorded but was not included on an album and as a result was not a part of her catalog of published songs. I knew there were a few odds and ends that were left over from the Lost Highway records but not very many. I also knew that there were a few songs from the early years like Letters, which Laura Cantrell somehow got her hands on (which is still a bit of a mystery) and recorded a few years ago. At the same time I was reading the bootleg thread here in the forum and my interest was piqued because there were a couple song titles being mentioned that I was not previously aware of- like for instance Bill, but somebody mentioned that they thought it might the original title of Hard Road–it isn’t but I’ll get to that in a second. I then asked Lucinda’s attorney if she wanted to me include early songs that may have only been demos etc., and she replied yes, definitely.
The day I began to put the list together I went and asked Lucinda to give a me a list of early songs that she never put on records. I mentioned to her that there was a thread on her website that discussing old songs etc. and I asked her if she remembered a song named Bill, and she said “wow I had forgotten all about that one”. What happened next is the kind surprise that could only come from Lucinda. She went and got a folder and handed it to me and said “look thru this, there’s some things in here -but I think there are some that are missing because I think I have another folder somewhere”. I knew that she kept a big folder with all of the original handwritten lyrics of most of her songs, and things she’s working on, but let’s just say I had no idea what was really in there.
I began going thru the folder, page by page, putting them in an excel spreadsheet in chronological order and I was grouping these songs as pre-RT, or pre Rough Trade. Some of them were dated and some of them were written with the same blue ink so I knew they had been written around the same time. The more I went through them the more fascinated I was became- there were a lot that I had no idea even existed-how could that be–only a couple of these were in the box of old tapes that we had discovered a few years ago. As I typed in the last song title into the spread sheet I sat there staring at the screen looking at a list of 20+ songs that I had listed as “pre-RT” and suddenly it just dawned on me what exactly I was looking at. It was one of those “holy #$%&!!!” moments. These were much more than the lost Lucinda songs-these were the LOST ALBUMS. These are the songs that would’ve been the albums that would have bridged the gap between 1981-1988, had her career taken a normal path. As I read through them again I realized how perfectly they fit , they filled in the story – a few of the earlier ones reference New York, as if picking up the story line right from the song Happy Woman Blues. All of the ones written in the same blue ink were dated and written in 1984, and showed a continued development of her writing. A couple do contain a line or two that show up in other songs. Oh yeah, Bill is definitely not Hard Road.For some reason it had never even occurred to me that might be the case-that she would have all these other songs that would have been the albums she would have done in the 80’s. I had gone through a lot of her archives and there was no hint that all these songs existed. I was stunned -how could that be? -well because, as she told me, most of these songs were only recorded on cassettes (and she wasn’t sure where they were). Yes, of course makes perfect sense.
That’s where the story ends right? Not quite. After this big discovery, I was talking about it with her and was telling her how amazed I was to find all of these songs, and how these would have been the lost albums and she said very nonchalantly “oh yeah they would’ve, a lot of them were written at the same time as RT and SOW-but nobody wanted to sign me”. I also suggested to her that at some point we should go and record these solo acoustic so we have them in some form–which she agreed.
It was more than a little odd then to read the interview, posted only a couple of days ago, but one she had done about 8 or 9 years ago, where she mentions all these early songs that have this innocence, and she might just record them acoustically. A very strange coincidence.
One last thing -in the time since I made this discovery, there have been a couple more posts in the bootleg thread that mention songs (That’s How I Got To Memphis, Duck And Dive) that are not on my list.
I think I need to find that other folder.July 12, 2010 at 4:48 am #43856punchdrunkloveParticipanttom, i did a little research on those two songs you don’t have on your list. didn’t find anything about “duck and dive” (there’s a possibility that it’s not the real title after all, since it’s listed on that site with a interrogation point), but regarding “that’s how i got to memphis”, take a look at this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/postcard2@u.washington.edu/msg03010.html
Longtime Chicagoan Mark Linn got an introduction to Hall in the
early 90s, when he caught a performance of his “That’s How I Got to
Memphis” by Lucinda Williams in Baltimore.Kelly Willis nails “That’s How I
Got to Memphis”–the last track commissioned since, Linn admits, he’d
held the tune for Lucinda Williams, who had promised to contribute and
whose father, poet Miller Williams, is friends with Hall. (Williams was
busy recording her notoriously perfect record, Car Wheels on a Gravel
Road.)the song is listed on the album “ballad of 40 dollars”, released in 1969: http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/tom_t__hall/ballad_of_forty_dollars/
July 12, 2010 at 6:17 am #43857LafayetteParticipantWow, well this mystery continues even further. I found these credits on ” That’s How I Got To Memphis’ here. Something is just not kosher unless I’m not following along correctly.
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/tabs/miller-buddy/thats-how-i-got-to-memphis-3669.html
Recorded by Buddy Miller’
Written by Tom T. Hall ????
Gurf Morlix contributed on guitar.
July 12, 2010 at 6:21 am #43858LafayetteParticipantSeveral videos on YouTube of “That’s How I Got To Memphis.” This one credits Tom T. Hall as well. It seems to me as though Lucinda has been ripped off in a major way!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Ao4XfcXhk
Tom T. Hall:
July 12, 2010 at 7:32 am #43859punchdrunkloveParticipanti think this indicates that lucinda may have just covered the song on that show (kut-fm, austin, 86), just as she did on this early 90s baltimore gig that the article i previously posted indicates.
i mean, we would have to listen to it and compare with the lyrics to be 100% sure, but to my mind it’s quite clear that the song was written by tom t. hall and covered by lucinda, buddy miller, deryl dodd et al.
perhaps that’s the reason why this song is not on tom’s list.
July 12, 2010 at 11:51 am #43860LeftyParticipantCongratulations, TO, on “Post of the Year” (imho). Great stuff!
July 12, 2010 at 1:36 pm #43861tntracyParticipant@Lefty wrote:
Congratulations, TO, on “Post of the Year” (imho). Great stuff!
Indeed. Also, thanks to all Friendly Forum members who have contributed to this fascinating “archeological dig.”
More & more, I am seeing the justification for a box set of unreleased songs & alternate takes of released songs! (Hint, hint! 😉 )
Tom
July 12, 2010 at 1:46 pm #43862LWjettaParticipantJust a couple of months ago we were starving for new info on the Friendly Forum, now we are overwhelmed. 2010 is going to be another banner year for Lucinda material. Thanks TOverby for all that and for looking into “The Lost Songs” and Lefty says it all.
@Lefty wrote:Congratulations, TO, on “Post of the Year” (imho). Great stuff!
Anyway some info on two of the songs- Full Moon and Letters as written by the “Queen Bee” herself.
QUOTE:
There’s one from the early Nineties, “Well Well Well,” that was on the demos for Sweet Old World and never made it on that record. What prompted me to go back and review my songs was Laura Cantrell coming out with “Letters.” That was written in the late Seventies, when I was living in Houston, or maybe right after I left there. A mutual friend gave her an old demo tape. Lo and behold, Laura ended up putting it on her record. I heard it and went, “Oh my God!” I never thought that song would see the light of day, but the fact that she heard something in it ….
A lot of my early stuff I feel like I’ve outgrown. It’s not as developed as my later stuff, not as sophisticated.
One time I was in a bar in Devil’s Corner in Nashville, and Nanci Griffith was in there. She said: “I just love that song ‘Full Moon.’ That’s my favorite song by you.” I said, “You’ve got to be kidding.” I didn’t take stuff like that seriously until Laura Cantrell did “Letters,” and I went, “Holy shit, maybe I should take a closer look at these.”
END QUOTE:
Here is the full article from the Austin Chronicle Feb. 20, 2009 ( probably a re-post?)http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A744017
The song “Duck and Dive?” could prove to be more challenging to investigate (as was this version of “Blue”)as punchdrunklove put it.
The only Google matching it is a Native American song for a Pow Wow.
Thanks again TOM for all this good stuff.
lwjJuly 12, 2010 at 2:32 pm #43863LafayetteParticipant@punchdrunklove wrote:
i think this indicates that lucinda may have just covered the song on that show (kut-fm, austin, 86), just as she did on this early 90s baltimore gig that the article i previously posted indicates.
i mean, we would have to listen to it and compare with the lyrics to be 100% sure, but to my mind it’s quite clear that the song was written by tom t. hall and covered by lucinda, buddy miller, deryl dodd et al.
perhaps that’s the reason why this song is not on tom’s list.
I do believe you are correct. It was very late last night / early this morning while I was searching. I was only finding the song, the youtubes and such, with credits dated from the 90’s. I thought it might be a Lucinda song from the blog you posted AND the KUT On Air which was in 1984. HOWEVER, I finally found this greatest hits record of Tom T. Hall dated 1972 with “That’s How I Got To Memphis.”
Apologies to Tom T. Hall for calling him a thief. 😳 😆
http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/tom-t-hall-greatest-hits-vol-1/id15037600
July 12, 2010 at 2:41 pm #43864LafayetteParticipantAnd, may I add…
QUOTE: “A lot of my early stuff I feel like I’ve outgrown. It’s not as developed as my later stuff, not as sophisticated.
One time I was in a bar in Devil’s Corner in Nashville, and Nanci Griffith was in there. She said: “I just love that song ‘Full Moon.’ That’s my favorite song by you.” I said, “You’ve got to be kidding.” I didn’t take stuff like that seriously until Laura Cantrell did “Letters,” and I went, “Holy shit, maybe I should take a closer look at these.” END QUOTE
…had John Mellencamp never covered “Lafayette” I seriously doubt I would have ever found Lucinda.
July 12, 2010 at 4:59 pm #43865punchdrunkloveParticipantoh, what an honor to be complimented by nanci griffith. she has an amazing album “other voices, other rooms” that, besides the very strong selection of songs and artists, makes particularly clear how beautifully/respectfully she approaches to material by others (the album features 17 cover songs). not that it was needed, but now it’s 100% safe to assume that “full moon” is more than ever a hidden jewel.
July 12, 2010 at 7:09 pm #43866TOverbyParticipantI asked Lucinda last night about “That’s How I Got To Memphis” and Duckin’ & Divin’. THIGTM is indeed a Tom T Hall song, and D & D is actually called Duckin’ & Dodgin’ and is from an old LP she had called Louisiana Penitentiary Songs. I think there is something else from that record that she has done also, because I recall her brining it up before. She says she still has it but we haven’t unboxed all of her LP’s yet.
Full Moon and Ramon are songs that goes back to her days in Houston and the Anderson Fair scene, which is where the connection to Nancy Griffith and Lyle Lovett among others, comes from. There was a documentary made about Anderson Fair a couple years ago, as of now it’s not available for purchase but a trailer can be seen here: http://www.andersonfairthemovie.com/trailer.html
Lucinda not only participated in the doc but the creators of the movie came up with what is probably the oldest footage of Lucinda performing -I think she said it was around 1976. She is performing on a local Houston public TV show (in black and white) and if I recall she is doing Ramon-there is only a few seconds of it but it is quite…well, no other word for it, precious.
I believe we have now acquired the entire piece of footage which I have not yet seen, but at some point we’ll find a place for it.July 12, 2010 at 8:22 pm #43867punchdrunkloveParticipantramon… this one was off my radar.
tom, can you tell us anything about “how it feels” and “don’t kid yourself” – they’re the other two from that show about which we know nothing about.
D & D is actually called Duckin’ & Dodgin’ and is from an old LP she had called Louisiana Penitentiary Songs.
she was planning on releasing it? is this somewhat related to or inspired by that show (don’t know if it was more than one) lucinda performed with her father at a penitentiary in arkansas in the late 70s? maybe concrete and barbed wire (“somewhere in louisiana, my sugar’s doing time”) is from this period, especially now that we know that it was written before 1986…
July 12, 2010 at 8:43 pm #43868TOverbyParticipant“How It Feels” is an attempted songwriting collaboration with Jim Lauderdale that was never recorded by either of them (or anybody else) and is just one of those songs that was never quite born. The lyrics for it were in the aforementioned folder with all of the other recently discovered songs. “Don’t Kid Yourself” is a Lucinda song that appears to be from 1984. No immediate plans to release any of this -in fact, technically. as of right now most of these songs exist on paper only. The cassettes that these songs exist on have to be found, although if I recall correctly there is a plastic tub of cassettes in the storage space where keep all of the road gear, and I would guess that those cassettes will contain many of the songs being discussed and more. I’m adding that to my to-do list.
July 12, 2010 at 11:19 pm #43869LWjettaParticipant@TOverby wrote:
I asked Lucinda last night about “That’s How I Got To Memphis” and Duckin’ & Divin’. THIGTM is indeed a Tom T Hall song, and D & D is actually called Duckin’ & Dodgin’ and is from an old LP she had called Louisiana Penitentiary Songs.
Found this re: Duckin’ & Dodgin’
Sung by Mathew “Hogman” Maxey
Angola Prisoners’ Blues (Louisiana Folklore Society/Arhoolie)
Folklorist Dr. Harry Oster used the tool room of the Louisiana state penitentiary at Angola to record Angola Prisoners’ Blues in 1959. Of the three guitar-playing convicts featured on this LP — Robert “Guitar” Welch, Matthew “Hogman” Maxey and Robert Pete Williams — it was Welch (born in Memphis in 1896) who was hailed by the prison population as “King of the Blues.
The song is on this album.
Duckin’ And Dodgin’
sung by Hogman Maxey
From the Album Blues From The Big House and other album titles all available on Amazon.
And, now have a listen to this old blues song courtesy of You Tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ZqJxxIfZo&feature=youtube_gdata
lwj -
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